Game 805: tikkifriend, victor in Denunciation

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• Help having a problem deploying my men in denunciation as there is no visable deployment area (black & yellow stripes)
  Posted by tikkifriend 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• Depending on your side, they are at either end of the map, hidden behind some buildings. See the map here: http://www.stellarforces.com/dsr/viewmissionmap.cls?missionid=53
  Posted by SteveSmith 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• I see we need to do something about one Ambassador killing the other in the first turn! Don't blame me, Deadlime created it. :)
  Posted by SteveSmith 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• lol
  Posted by victor 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• Sorry he just became the incedible Hulk. Want to try another game, different scenario?
  Posted by tikkifriend 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• I've changed this now so the Ambassadors start further apart.
  Posted by SteveSmith 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• I was worried that this could happen. Can we reduce their CC skill and Strength, and increase Health too?
  Posted by Deadlime 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• I was going to do that, but reducing their CC wouldn't make a difference since they will still be equal to each, and thus still have the same chance of hitting in close combat. Their strength is already at 8, so I could reduce that even more, but then they wouldn't be able to pick hardly anything up. But maybe that's not a problem?
  Posted by SteveSmith 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• Another reason I moved them was because player 1 always had the advantage of either attacking or running away on the first turn. If the ran away, they would end up where they start now, and if the attacked it would be unfair.
  
  Do you want me to increase their health anyway, to make them harder to kill?
  Posted by SteveSmith 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• I didn't play this mission but I watched the playback.
  How about the idea to separate the ambassadors with a line of waters ? Is not realistic for ambassadors to fight, so they not need skills, maybe only higher HP 70. The idea is to protect them so they must run and hide as soon as possible.
  
  Is not fair to let the first player to attack the enemy ambassador in first turn.
  
  Nice mission :)
  Posted by wonderhero 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• I'm not sure what is the best method of preventing this from happening, because I'm not sure how much damage can be cause by unarmed CC fighting. Would increasing health and reducing strength be enough to prevent this? Even if one of the Ambassadors became seriously wounded at the beginning leading to reduced APs that would be devastating.
  
  What about auto equipping them each with Techno Armour? (light enough to wear with poor strength but good protection) Would that be enough to prevent damage from unarmed CC?
  
  Like wonderhero mentions, banning Ambassador combat completely would be a firm solution. Although I'm not sure I like the idea of an uncrossable (water) area in the central room, as that would reduce the amount of crossing points on the map.
  Posted by Deadlime 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• The Ambassadors still need enough strength to pick up a weapon - last ditch defense!
  Posted by frazzmac 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• Good idea with Techno Armour. They can stay very closer and can't hurt each other.
  Is not necessary to pickup cause they can catch any weapon thrown by another unit.
  Posted by wonderhero 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• I would like to try this one.
  May we start a new one with a non-aggression pact, both ambassadors could run to their zone and then start the game.
  Posted by victor 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• I think its a good and almost realistic solution that of ambassadors having no cc skills but able to shoot a weapon this way they couldn't hurt each other in first turns.
  Posted by victor 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• Assuming you have a unit left to throw something at the Ambassador...
  Posted by frazzmac 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• There's lots of good ideas here, but I don't think any of them solve the problem of player 1 having the first turn advantage. If player 1 decide to run away at the start, side 2 can't really do anything to stop them and they end up seperated anyway. And player 1 wouldn't attack player 2 since there would be no reason to do if they can't harm each other.
  
  Deadlime, when you designed the mission did you envision something else that the ambassadors might do, like follow each other or something?
  Posted by SteveSmith 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• When I designed it I had nothing in mind other than both Ambassadors would run away and hide. I didn't intend for either of them to attack or try to follow each other.
  
  I figured side 1 would have a slight advantage in moving first, but thought it was only an advantage in giving them more time to hide. That's why I set the deployment areas far away in the corners hoping that Player 2 Ambassador would still have enough time to hide.
  Posted by Deadlime 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• In that case, IMHO just having the ambassadors start far away from each other solves all the problems?
  Posted by SteveSmith 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• There are some possible tactics, and always 1st player would have a certain advantage, maybe 1st player can be elected randomly at the begining of the game, this could also be applied to those mission that both teams are the same like battle in sigma 7, capture the flag, two moonbases, etc...
  Posted by victor 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• I like the idea that two ambassadors staying face to face but can't harm each other. Because if first player has advantage of first move, the second player will see the direction where the enemy ambassador go so he will have an advantage too. :)
  Anyway if the problems with ambassadors is solved, the map will be balanced, it doesn't matter who is the first player in my opinion.
  Posted by wonderhero 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• That's another good point wonderhero, and another good reason to keep both of the Ambassadors in sight of each other from the start. It would be ideal if they were both facing each other, so that Player 2 can watch Player 1's movement.
  
  Steve, I don't think there is a way of starting them far enough away from each other for this to apply without the risk 1 will kill the other. Not unless we make the suggested changes to Strength, CC, Health and add some Techno Armour.
  Posted by Deadlime 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• It's not a problem for me to make the changes (though it will take a few days), but I must admit (in the nicest possible way) I still can't really see the point. :) Surely ambassador 1 will just run towards their units and ambassador 2 will run towards theirs. What's the advantage of player 2 seeing ambassador 1 running exactly where they expected them to run anyway? Am I missing something?
  Posted by SteveSmith 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• Well I do see your point also Steve, but all this speculation depends on some quite minor details. :)
  
  If the Ambassadors started at the far ends of the room in front of the doors then there is really only 1 likely direction they will exit, so your point would stand firm.
  
  But if the Ambassadors started in the centre of the room then there would be a choice of 3 possible routes for them to exit the room. (Thinking about this more, most players probably would just choose the central door, but it would allow for a bluff, or double-bluff by exiting from one of the side openings.)
  
  Then there is the question of where exactly would they start if the plan is to start them far enough away so that they cannot attack each other? We need them to be fairly fast to get away and hide in time. But with this in mind they would need to quite far away assuming they can easily wound or kill each other.
  
  This whole thing has probably become way overcomplicated. Maybe it's best if we just trust Steve's judgement to fix this situation however he think best.
  
  So long as the Ambassadors cannot be killed by each other, and they both have time to hide then, I'm not really too fussy. :)
  Posted by Deadlime 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• "..trust Steve's judgement to fix this situation however he think best."
  
  Or rather, create the least amount of work for himself. :) I just think that regardless of which door they exit, there's only about 10 squares difference, and by the time the ambassador has run to their side of the map, frankly they could end up anywhere. Lets try it as it is and see what happens.
  Posted by SteveSmith 15 years ago [Login to reply]



• It will be simple if you put 5 water squares in the center of room. Both ambassadors in sight of each other, in front of doors. If one ambassador want to hurt the other he must go a way around waters and it will take at least 40 APs. He will do maximum 2 strikes and the hit back of the other ambassador will be fatal. So the first ambassador must go to the one of 3 exits.
  Anyway if the first ambassador will exit to the central door, the last direction (diagonal right or left) will be spotted by the other.
  
  I think will works great and it will be interesting.
  Posted by wonderhero 15 years ago [Login to reply]

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